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Sarah, The Bringer of Tea - Holiday Snaps???
1st October, 2008
05:51 pm

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Holiday Snaps???
An update to this post from earlier today. I've spoken to someone who was in the conference, and they asked Richard Green why he was taking photos of us.

Apparently he was doing it at the request of Zucker himself, who wanted a souvenir, because he "found the attention amusing".

So there are going to be pictures of me, a few other transpeople, and a bunch of allies in Zucker's holiday snaps album. Knowing what they say about those who protest too much, I do hope he's not planning to view them with a box of Kleenex at the ready.

Urgh! I think I need a shower.

And sandpaper.

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[User Picture]
From:alicephilippa
Date:1st October, 2008 05:08 pm (UTC)
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*proffers the brain bleach*
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From:cmcmck
Date:1st October, 2008 05:16 pm (UTC)
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What is even weirder is that Richard Green wrote a very supportive letter to the 'Guardian' a while back (I posted it on my LJ, somewhat flabbered of ghast) about the rights of trans kids. I had been told he was organising an alternative conference in protest at Zucker's presence in the UK which was plainly a lot of balls (although it came from someone I know and trust). I wonder just WTF is actually going on here?

So we 'amuse' him do we? Patronising creep! I'd like to amuse him with the rough end of a pineapple! Problem is, he'd probably enjoy it :o)

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From:auntysarah
Date:1st October, 2008 05:18 pm (UTC)
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Problem is, he'd probably enjoy it :o)

Not if you use Deep Heat as a lubricant.

And yeah, messing kids up totally for life is, like, so amusing.
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From:cmcmck
Date:2nd October, 2008 02:59 pm (UTC)
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Snerk! :o)

You have a creatively nasty mind, ma'am!
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From:auntysarah
Date:1st October, 2008 05:25 pm (UTC)
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Oh, and I gather that they both (Green and Zucker) take the view that there's a certain gender fluidity in young children, where, I guess, they can be "moulded" one way or the other.

Apparently nothing has been learned from the tragedy of David Reimer, who ultimately took his own life. How many more people have to die to satisfy the conjectures of these quacks?
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From:lisaquestions
Date:1st October, 2008 06:01 pm (UTC)
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So I was reading this discussion somewhere (I thought it was on Pandagon, but now not so sure) in which a bunch of white cis feminists were debating whether trans people have a valid existence, and someone invoked David Reimer. Someone else said that David Reimer didn't prove anything that gender wasn't socialized because John Money assigned like hojillions of intersex infants female, and like half of them stuck with that assignment.

That totally proves that the sense of being male or female is socialized.
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From:auntysarah
Date:1st October, 2008 06:04 pm (UTC)
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and like half of them stuck with that assignment.

*facepalm*
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From:lisaquestions
Date:1st October, 2008 06:15 pm (UTC)
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I need to find that discussion again because I want to fisk the hell out of it.
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From:cmcmck
Date:1st October, 2008 07:09 pm (UTC)
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Gah! And just who are they to 'mould' anyone?

Pshrinks just freak me out!
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From:auntysarah
Date:1st October, 2008 07:24 pm (UTC)
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They are our Lords and Masters.

Legends in their own minds.

Sad little dirty old men who sneak photos of trannies for the amusement of their repressed, homophobic mates.

Possibly one of the above is true...
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From:cyberspice
Date:1st October, 2008 07:26 pm (UTC)
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I'm your wicked Uncle Zucker
Im your wicked Uncle Zucker
Im glad you wont see or hear me
Im glad you wont see or hear me
As I fiddle about
As I fiddle about
Fiddle about
Fiddle about
Fiddle about !
Fiddle about !

Edited at 2008-10-01 19:26 (UTC)
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From:oatc
Date:3rd October, 2008 05:19 am (UTC)
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He did organise a very supportive conference, last Sunday, but it was to counter the conference on Wednesday, not Zucker's presence. He had Zucker at his conference too, which was very enlightening (yes, I was there).

Thing is, the real issue with the Wednesday conference was not Zucker at all, but it being intended to reinforce the appalling mistreatment transsexual children get in the UK, at the Gender Identity Development Unit at the Tavistock and Portman psychoanalytic centre in Swiss Cottage. It totally monopolises children's treatment in the UK and absolutely refuses any child any intervention to limit the harm of the wrong puberty. They prescribe nothing at all until at least 16, and in the meantime try to undermine their identity, often with serious misinformation.

Wednesday's conference was intended to "educate" more doctors in that approach, and bring on board top UK medical ethicists, pediatric endocrinologists and pediatric geneticists. They had leading neuroimaging experts who were going to show that teenage brains change a lot, and the psychoanalysts intended to use that to supposedly be "evidence" that children's gender identity is unreliable and not to be trusted - reinforcing their policy of making them wait.

Now Zucker is an appalling man who does his best to force young children to change their gender identity (as was recently detailed in an American radio documentary), but, in recent years, he has started helping teenagers who have maintained their gender identity by chemically intervening before 16 (although pictures he showed on Sunday reveal it is too little and too late, and it goes along with a very insulting attitude). That sorta puts him on the opposite side to the London lot. At the Wednesday conference only him, and two representatives of the Dutch system (which has been halting puberty at 12 in very carefully selected cases for over a decade now, but who have been ignored consistently by the London team) seemed likely to be standing against the London protocols.

Green's conference, for which he actually, astonishing as it seems, given his history, deserves huge appreciation, brought together all the best people in assisting transsexual children, a wonderfully strong medical ethicist, and several of young patients and their families, from several countries, making a hugely convincing case that the London system is completely wrong, harmful, and abusive, and that others have far better (although still not perfected) methods.

Astoundingly two of the leading members of the small London team sat through the entire conference on Sunday, listening, often to people condemning them directly, and doctors offering UK patients free help in America if only they could get there, and said not a single word. Thus we can now say with total certainty that they know the alternatives and what people think of them.
From:(Anonymous)
Date:3rd October, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)

Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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Thanks to Oatc for injecting some much needed fact into this discussion. There is a very detailed report on Sunday's conference here:

http://podcast.plain-sense.co.uk/2008/10/01/trans-kids-on-the-block

Listening to that report -- which features many of the actual conference speakers and Richard Green -- will help you all to understand the people and issues better.
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From:auntysarah
Date:3rd October, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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Poor, misunderstood, Zucker. If only we got to know him a bit better, we wouldn't go round thinking he was some sort of transphobic, homophobic quack, happy to use his ideas that human diversity is a pathology and that gender identity is "fluid"* to punish small children into believing that they need to hide their true feelings from the adults they thought they trusted. Nice.

And if we poor dumb trannies would only understand that he means so well, we'd understand the issues better, because we're obviously a bit thick and need repressed dinosaurs to tell use how to live our lives and who we are, because we really have no idea. Yes, we just need to "understand the people and issues better."

Or you could fuck off.

* - It would be nice to ask David Reimer about that, only we can't, because after a short lifetime of being the unwilling subject of a failed experiment to "prove" said fluidity, he tragically took his own life
From:bird_of_paradox
Date:4th October, 2008 06:37 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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Well, I think we should all be very grateful to that nice, knowledgeable anonymous person for taking time out of hir undoubtedly busy schedule to explain things so clearly to woefully ignorant transgenderists like us.

I mean, ze evidently knows so many things that ze’s obviously forgotten hir own name. We should stop being such mean, uppity trannies and respect and admire such brave and selfless dedication to the thankless task of educating us.

*rolls eyes*
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From:cyberspice
Date:3rd October, 2008 09:00 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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That fact that I'm a trans-woman probably means that I understand things a lot more than some bigotted cis-man.
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From:alicephilippa
Date:3rd October, 2008 09:10 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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As a transwoman, I've done the background reading and understand the issues. It is because I understand them, that I wouldn't trust Zucker for one as far as I could throw him.
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From:lisaquestions
Date:3rd October, 2008 09:12 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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I find it rather sickening that you assume that we - as trans people who are personally invested in this topic - don't understand the people and issues already, that cissexual men's voices are presumed to trump our own just by virtue of being cissexual men.

Seriously, we do get to be experts on our own experiences.
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From:heinousbitca
Date:3rd October, 2008 11:54 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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you know, i always find that when a person outside an oppressed group, like, oh, Kenneth Zucker, tells an oppressed group like, oh, transpeople how well they mean, it's generally because what they're advocating is pretty much abhorrent.
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From:cmcmck
Date:6th October, 2008 01:00 pm (UTC)

Re: Richard Green's Sunday Conference

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Go though it all as a young transitioner (as I did in the seventies) then come back and tell us all that we need 'help' to understand. I don't need your help or any other self styled 'experts' to understand the issues- I understand them pretty damn well- after all I have thirty plus years' experience of them- so don't damn well patronise me!

Oh, and have the good manners to tell us who you are, please.
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From:auntysarah
Date:3rd October, 2008 08:51 pm (UTC)
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Thanks for a most useful and informative comment. Green's become something of an enigma in his old age. He's making some of the right noises for sure, and can possibly still be doing useful stuff (when he's not busy being Zucker's "tranny pin up collector" errand boy), but while I agree that he deserves some appreciation for his conference (which wasn't protested, unlike the RSM one), I still can't bring myself to trust him as far as I could throw him.

And I still can't quite bring myself to forgive him for what he tried to do to Russell, for having the gall to treat transpeople like human beings at a time when the NHS was insisting married transpeople divorce before they'd get any treatment.

Edited at 2008-10-03 21:07 (UTC)
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From:oatc
Date:14th October, 2008 04:56 pm (UTC)
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Yes, quite. Indeed there's very few in the field I trust at all, although several at Green's conference were sounding good, and seemed to hold up in one-on-one conversations. But Green is, for example, someone who would speak or write well for us against Bindel.
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From:aesmael
Date:1st October, 2008 05:44 pm (UTC)
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So Zucker's a troll, then? Ew.
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From:cyberspice
Date:1st October, 2008 06:03 pm (UTC)
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Damn. If I'd been there I could have been in his photo album!
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From:auntysarah
Date:1st October, 2008 06:05 pm (UTC)
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Allo darlin! Would you like to see some of Uncle Ken and Uncle Dick's puppies?
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From:cyberspice
Date:1st October, 2008 07:12 pm (UTC)
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ROFLOL.

Except that I read your posts with your voice in my head. That's just scary!
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From:auntysarah
Date:1st October, 2008 07:16 pm (UTC)
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I can do "dirty old man" quite well...
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From:cyberspice
Date:1st October, 2008 07:17 pm (UTC)
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/me shudders

:-P
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From:alicephilippa
Date:1st October, 2008 08:06 pm (UTC)
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There are *some* dirty old men I'd be happy to be chatted up by. But I can't imagine you as a DOM, as opposed to a Domme.
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From:natalie_456
Date:1st October, 2008 08:34 pm (UTC)
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I really hope that Zucker gets owned by some intelligent people who he shows that "album" to...

"and this is a picture of a group of trannys protesting against my work"
"Well, thats 'cause you're a moron, right?"
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From:auntysarah
Date:3rd October, 2008 08:58 pm (UTC)
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Quite!
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From:tekalynn
Date:1st October, 2008 11:15 pm (UTC)
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How very charming of Mr Zucker. A gentleman indeed.
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From:natalie_456
Date:2nd October, 2008 10:31 am (UTC)
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oo and Happy Birthday!!!
From:fall_of_sophia
Date:2nd October, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC)
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happy bday BB!
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From:auntysarah
Date:3rd October, 2008 08:56 pm (UTC)
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Eek! It's actually a bit scary - not sure how I feel about this kind of exposure. While flattering, it does make me a little bit nervous.

Interesting that he did the same photo thing to Lynn Conway. Too creepy...
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From:cmcmck
Date:6th October, 2008 03:02 pm (UTC)
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Patronising anonymous creeps aside, Christine's interviews with Zucker et al on 'plain sense' DO make quite interesting listening.

Surprise, surprise- the Dutch lady comes across as the sanest of the bunch..........
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From:mark_jones_jnr
Date:10th October, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)
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*fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap*
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