Sarah, The Bringer of Tea - The S onewall Demo, Part II
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06:30 pm
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The S onewall Demo, Part II
I think it's going to take some time to analyse the fall-out from this. I'm pleased that we managed to make the point, very effectively, that this was about Stonewall, not Bindel. There has been a lot of discussion about how we should react to Bindel, with some feeling that we should remain unfailingly polite and "reasonable" while someone who questions our very right to exist as a community abuses our good faith and belief in freedom of speech to essentially try and goad us into a) saying something "stupid", which she can presumably use as evidence of what terrible people we all are in her next attack, and b) make it all about her. Instead, so the argument goes, we should woo her; if we can just talk to her in good faith, she'll see the light and could be a powerful ally!
I don't have a huge amount of time for this point of view, for a number of reasons:
- There's plenty of stuff out there she can use if we don't give her something "suitable" in response to her trolling our demo's Facebook groups. She'll just go elsewhere for it, as in "Hecklers" when she appeared to be basing part of her caricature of trans people on those dreadful websites aimed at fleecing closeted cross-dressers, so wonderfully parodies by Tatt-4-Trannies (not worksafe).
- Nobody is going to think that we shouldn't have human rights because a trans person swore at a mediocre journalist who has built her career on "controversy".
- The assumption that she's willing to "negotiate" with us in good faith is, I think, flawed. She's consistently refused to answer straightforward questions about whether she still thinks we should be "allowed" to have surgery or not, and anyway, why waste the effort persuading someone who is resolutely sticking to an argument that was lost a very long time ago. While they might be loud and obnoxious on the Internet, the transphobic radfem fringe are mostly a bunch of loonies who nobody listens to because they annoy everybody else with their dogma as well. I don't think I'm being unfair to Julie Bindel by describing her as a bit like a female version of Jeremy Clarkson, only unfunny and for Guardian Readers. I might be being unfair to Jeremy Clarkson though - I suspect his fan club has more than twelve members.
- People like Bindel are not the problem. People who dignify the views of people like Bindel by giving her a platform are the problem. There are already suggestions that the great and the good of the trans community will be hosting the "debate" she seems to crave in a few weeks. I think this is a colossal error of judgement, and lends legitimacy to her views which they don't deserve. If we are going to put time and resources into trying to recruit allies to our cause, why not spend them on shifting the large numbers of people in the middle ground, who are actually open to being moved?
I read a very interesting historical piece today. It's about the second largest trans demonstration in British history. Eleven years ago, a group of 50 protesters marched on parliament to deliver a petition for trans people's rights. Those were the days when PfC were involved in being on the streets doing direct activism aimed at the political establishment. It seems the establishment at the time suffered from similar cognitive dissonance about the nature of their protest that they suffered over ours, especially over the idea of them being formed of like-minded people, rather than run by a "leader".
The piece concludes with this:
"What lies ahead now is a different SORT of campaign. A time when we consolidate and assess the various openings we've got, and build more of the same. A time when we stop spending all of our time justifying WHY we should be listened to, and start to spend more time on WHAT we need to say. A time when transsexual people move from being objects of ridicule and fear, into subjects of interest and respect ... people with an experience and lessons which are of wider benefit.
A new chapter, in fact."
That was written by Christine Burns, and describes the sort of direct activism that the Press for Change we know today evolved from. Eleven years later, Press for Change themselves have been utterly silent on the subject of Stonewall and Bindel, refusing to advertise the demonstration or even acknowledging that it happened in their news bulletin. It's like they've managed to completely miss the fact that any of this is going on, except for the fact that we know (from several sources) that they have been in private discussions with Stonewall.
The other elder organisation of the trans community, the Gender Trust, provoked grass roots outrage by initially supporting the protest, and then announcing, after private discussions with Stonewall, that it would be "Churlish" to protest.
The irony is palpable - it seems that despite Christine's optimism of eleven years ago, we are indeed back to "justifying WHY we should be listened to", only this time it's to our own brothers and sisters.
And yet, even with those veterans of the trans struggle at best ignoring our grass-roots protest, and at worst, behaving in ways (albeit not always publicly) which could be seen as actively trying to sabotage it, we managed to get three times as many people out to stand up and be heard, and that was on a cold November evening.
And these elder organisations were not spoken of fondly in the pub afterwards, not because any of us wish them any ill-will, but because they seem to be terrified that we might upset the established order, or something.
I read another very interesting article today too, by Sophia Siedlberg of Intersex campaigning group, OII. The article details the emergence of OII as a group within the intersex community after a feeling that their elder organisations had lost the plot.
A parallel is drawn between that situation and the one now faced by the UK's trans community. Sophia observes:
"Press for Change have probably lost it. They achieved a half measure of their original objective and then rested on their laurels. The sight of Christine Burns talking to a radical "Second wave feminist" lesbian who most have called a "Transphobe" over tea and cucumber sandwiches asking "Am I a woman?" must have been the straw that broke the camel's back to some people. I admit that as an outsider I found it very odd."
I'm not sure we're at the stage where a grass roots revolution will get so frustrated with our established groups ignoring us, and instead cosying up to transphobes and the organisations who give them a free pass, but I think the only thing that's currently stopping us from being there is that none of us are particularly interested in a power grab, and aren't quite ready to toss the likes of PfC and the GT on the scrapheap just yet.
But at the same time, I don't think we're very far away from people feeling that disillusioned and that desperate. To quote Christine Burns from that momentous time back in 1997, "What lies ahead now is a different SORT of campaign".
A plea to Christine's former colleagues - listen to her on this, she knows what she's talking about.
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Please don't defriend me just because I say Clarkson occasionally makes me laugh. He overstates things (as I sometimes do) with the intention of getting a laugh. There's a humour thing going there. I detect no humour from Bindel.
When the organisations which claim to be representing you fail to do that then those who feel let down by those organisations will start their own if those organisations don't start to live in the real world.
To give a cricketing example you could say that World Series Cricket was started by Kerry Packer and disaffected players saw something better there and went for it, as has the ICL. The world bodies had lost the plot and needed a wake up call. It came, they refused to wake up and got their arses dragged through the courts and then lost.
But that's a cricket rant so I'll spare you all that. To those groups involved, the signs are there. Please heed them and start doing the right thing. If you don't then the revolution mentioned will happen. Reputation is something you can't always control. S onewall have found that out.
Please don't defriend me just because I say Clarkson occasionally makes me laugh
He's sometimes made me laugh too.
Clarkson ridicules everyone and everything. In that he is kind of fair. And I absolutely like to whatch his shows, espicially Top Gear.
Sarah Roth
JB will never be our ally, to be so would mean that she would have to renounce the whole of her second wave feminist dogma and realise that feminism has moved on. I don't personally think that she is capable of doing that.
Tatt-4-Trannies is bloody hilarious.
I never knew that The Sun was the official paper of closeted cross-dressers, because I now realise that's where I've seen most of the ads for breast-enhancing creams, huge high-heeled shoes, etc.
My mind is still mulling over the later issues that you've address here, so I'll probably hold comment for now, but a very interesting post and one that chimes with what everyone I've talked to is feeling right now- i.e. the current order of things, both within the "trans community", and the wider UK society are so wrong, and a change is required, but what form that new direction will take and who will lead it is a question currently without an answer.
I only wish I wasn't having to limit my involvement for now for fear of another activist burn out :(
I only wish I wasn't having to limit my involvement for now for fear of another activist burn out :(
I wouldn't suggest there's an imperative for anyone to be doing any of this stuff. In my case, it kinda happened by accident, but it does get me out of the house. ;-)
Oh, no. It's not that I feel any external pressure to do / do a certain amount of any of the activism I'm interested in, trans stuff included, but it's a case that my disabilities leave me little functional time or energies, most of which are eaten up by simply living. ...and most of those disabilities are resultant from the way I've been treated for being trans or queer. Nice little catch 22, eh.
I'm in two minds about the appropriate attitude to JB. If the Facebook exchanges remain as a real-time record of what went on, it's important to show that she was given every chance and encouragement to respond positively, and wilfully chose not to do so. Not that she'll ever see it that way, of course, but any neutral or undecided party would, I think. She was cut a lot of slack, but it ended up using it as rope to hang herself. Since she and Ben Summerskill are clearly already trying to rewrite history, that may matter.
Meanwhile, you and the rest made history. That matters more.
Meanwhile, you and the rest made history. That matters more.
Thank you. We have to keep up the momentum now though. I think a lot of people still think that if they ignore us, we'll go away, including some of the people who should have been supporting and publicising what we were doing last night, rather than trying to avoid rocking the apple cart.
Since she and Ben Summerskill are clearly already trying to rewrite history, that may matter.
Anyone who tried to rewrite history deserves nothing but contempt. Those who know me know that people who try to airbrush or rewrite history are a real soapbox issue.
Meanwhile, you and the rest made history. That matters more.
Bloody well right, and you should do everything you can to record it accurately.
| From: | (Anonymous) |
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| Date: | 7th November, 2008 10:27 pm (UTC) |
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| | helen says "No surprise" | (Link) |
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We have embarrassed not just Stonewall, but we have made PfC and GT look reudndant and pointless. So the only thing they can do is attempt to seize the initiative back from the scruffy ones and the idea that they might want to reach out to Bindel and have her much-promised (ha!) debate probably makes sense to them. Makes them seem consequential.
There is an irony in the idea that two versions of the past are trying to own the future. I think we should make it plain that we deny the validity of any party involved to have this debate on our behalf and be done with it. Bindel doesn't represent any recognisable form of 21st century feminism, and there is now no organisation that represents us. 150 people standing out in the cold happened to be emphatically making that point, alongside others. Where is their credibility to speak on our behalf ?
| | From: | ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) auntysarah |
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| Date: | 8th November, 2008 12:38 am (UTC) |
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| | Re: helen says "No surprise" | (Link) |
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We have embarrassed not just Stonewall, but we have made PfC and GT look reudndant and pointless
I think PfC earned an enormous amount of credit for the GRA, but one can't live off credit forever. If they're perceived to be doing nothing useful (regardless of what they're actually doing, I'm specifically talking about perception here), then that credit will get used up slowly.
If they're perceived to be doing things which are actively damaging to our community, that credit will get used up quickly.
I can't understand how they let themselves get into this mess - they're normally more politically astute than this, but a lot of people I've been talking to in the last few days are getting increasingly disillusioned.
And still, they pretend none of this is happening.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/93466261/9372771) | | | Re: helen says "No surprise" | (Link) |
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As we all know, "perception is reality". And reputation is something one can't always control, especially when you associate yourself with someone whether directly or indirectly by a refusal to address issues raised.
We know this but for these other organisations to not understand it is puzzling.
| From: | (Anonymous) |
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| Date: | 7th November, 2008 11:15 pm (UTC) |
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| | A small correction | (Link) |
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A small correction to the history in your post, as I'm afraid you've not quite stated it correctly. The presentation of the petition at Number Ten in October 1997 was not a grass roots event; neither did it create "the PFC we know today".
PFC was founded in 1992 - the story of how it came to be in a long-demolished tea shop opposite the Houses of Parliament has been told many times and features, for instance, in the Podcast interviews which I've recorded in the past with Stephen Whittle and Mark Rees - two of the founders who were there. They also explain what came before that, so that people DO understand the history of our movement better.
The Petition actually took five years to amass. It was one of the first projects of the organisation and, in those days, that's how long it took to get ten thousand people (face to face) to sign a form and write in their home address. The presentation of that petition also took weeks of organising, along with the booking of press conference facilities in Westminster. As it happens we also had time to create GIRES that day too.
I may sound like a bit of a stickler over a correction like this but it I feel it IS important for people of today to understand their history accurately - if only because you otherwise trivialise or erase the work of people who were laying down foundations at a time when even getting a signature off some people was a threat to their security. That's one of the reasons I felt motivated to write about those historical milestones accurately in their time.
Rgds. Christine Burns
| | From: | auntysarah |
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| Date: | 7th November, 2008 11:49 pm (UTC) |
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| | Re: A small correction | (Link) |
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Thanks for the history and clarification. I didn't mean to imply that the presentation in '97 founded PfC, rather that the the organisation that it is today grew from such roots. Apologies if I phrased it clumsily.
I have edited the post, and hopefully it's clearer now.
Edited at 2008-11-07 23:53 (UTC)
I find Clarkson funny, he manages to make a masculine petrol head aimed show funny to even people with no interest in cars, which is a bit of a feat. He is a pig, and so on, but is still funny. Bindel... well she isn't funny.
As for PfC and GT, time they were put out to pasture, they come from a time when things were very different, the political scene has changed. They got the GRC done, and then seem no longer to care having got OBEs, etc. Time for younger fresher blood to fight for our rights.
IMO, the GRC is half-assed and makes a 2 tier system 'us' and 'them' in a sense. PfC should of perhaps fought harder for it to of gone further, but perhaps thats a bit unrealistic.
The needs of what trans rights are now seems radically different, compared even to 5 years ago. Perhaps PfC and GT are just jaded and worn out and have no fight left in them?
"I'm not sure we're at the stage where a grass roots revolution will get so frustrated with our established groups ignoring us, and instead cosying up to transphobes and the organisations who give them a free pass, but I think the only thing that's currently stopping us from being there is that none of us are particularly interested in a power grab, and aren't quite ready to toss the likes of PfC and the GT on the scrapheap just yet." Press For Change has done a lot of good for the trans community in the past (I can't talk about the GT because my experience of them is limited and also not great) but the issue at hand is that everything they have done is in the past. They are not doing anything now save for cosying-up with the other established *rights groups. These groups claim to represent people but did you ever ask them to represent you? Were you asked if you wanted to be represented by them? I didn't, and I wasn't. I resent anyone claiming to speak on my behalf, especially if while claiming to do this they go and sleep with the enemy; regardless of who the enemy may be at the time. The simple fact of the matter is that our community has many people who could be future leaders, but we do not need them to become so. We do not need a single group claiming to represent all of us, because to establish such a group is simply to revisit the gross errors of the past. A group like Press for Change, the Gender Trust, Stonewall, etc is doomed to failure because it will calcify; it will stagnate; it will end up working against those it claims to work for. We are better off remaining loosely-knit and developing into groups for particular purposes as and when necessary. Okay, it takes more work to organise anything but at the same time it means events like this protest are only made possible if people actually want them. It is democracy and true representation in action. Long like this "different sort of campaign", because it's the only real form of representation you can get.
Nice usable quote from JB in the Pink Paper:
"Iran carries out the highest number of sex change surgeries in the world," she said.
"It is unnecessary mutilation – in my opinion there is nothing ‘wrong’ with those who are currently seen as candidates for transgender surgery – they just don’t fit the gender stereotype.
"Surgery is an attempt to keep gender stereotypes intact. The diagnosis of childhood GID (gender identity disorder) follows old-fashioned notions of what constitutes appropriate behaviour for those assigned to the sex classes of male and female.
"It is precisely this idea that certain distinct behaviours are appropriate for males and females that underlies feminist criticism of the phenomenon of ‘transgenderism’. This view is shared by a large number of feminists of all ages and backgrounds."
"This view is shared by a large number of feminists of all ages and backgrounds." You've got to love these unsubstantiated claims. "I have sources, I just don't want to tell you them!". It's the pseudo-journalist's equivalent of "My Dad said ...."
*nods vigourously*
Kinda sad that mainstream journalism hasn't learned the one lesson they really should have from the wikipedia phenomenon, that of - citation, citation, citation!
(Although the bigger problem is not neccesarily bad journalism/research, but the complete void of knowledge in the majority populus with regards to applied stats and information analysis, which then prevents that populus recognising when they are being deceived or manipulated. So far the only solution I can see to this making 'Statisical & Infomational Literacy' a continuous school subject, but then that would give the populus at large the ability to see how the government lies to them, so that won't happen.)
| From: | (Anonymous) |
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| Date: | 8th November, 2008 03:33 pm (UTC) |
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| | | (Link) |
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"Intersex campaigning group, OII"
If the recent evidence of genetically determined lack of androgen response turns out to be accurate, TS might well turn out to be 'just' a form of IS anyway.
Technically that may be true, but I think it would be disrespectful to colonise the identities of IS people because they face a very different set of problems to us. We can work together as allies, but we shouldn't presume to speak for each other.
if there was one thing to learn from facebook, it was that JB was definately not interested in answering the questions members of the community posed to her (re: you posting the Brave Sir Robin video). If she can't be reasoned with, she definately doesn't deserve her debate - she needs to understand that theres nothing TO debate. Of course, theres the danger of her platform and her words affecting otherwise - if you can't change the record, why not turn the sound off? Ok, The Guardian might be a load of old toss, but people do read it and take its words as some sort of gospel.
Organised collectives of grass roots campaigners and allies (as thursday's protest was) clearly might be the 21st century way of doing this - unless an organisation can really stand up and say "we respect the umbrella and shall fight for ALL of those under it as long as we are capable of doing so", and really do that without losing steam. My main concerns would be that such a collective (say it was that and not a group with a leader) would need to be able to have a similiar influence that PfC has and it being able to find the required visibility to be successful.
The OII looks like its really got its feet on the ground and really have a healthy brain.
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