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On Being Ashamed of Feminism and its Hypocrisy - Sarah, The Bringer of Tea
5th November, 2009
09:58 am

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On Being Ashamed of Feminism and its Hypocrisy
Feeling so very disappointed right now.

Until feminism as a movement stops being mainly an exercise in navel-gazing for middle-class, educated, white cissexual women, until those professing to be feminists stop holding up bigots like Raymond, Greer and Bindel as icons because they're getting damp over some paragraph they once wrote, until the movement at large takes itself seriously enough to apply its supposed principles to cover all women, and all cases where the powerful oppress the powerless, regardless of sex, gender, race, education, class, income, etc., until someone can make a post about trans people having sex on a supposed feminist discussion board without commenters claiming that a trans person (and you know they mean trans woman) having sex without disclosing their medical history is non-consensual sex (i.e. rape) which should be prosecuted, and having half the people in the discussion sharing a similar sentiment...

...until then, I'm going to proclaim loudly and clearly, "I'm not with them."

By the way, did you know that teh tranz is just like an STD? You can probably even catch it from a snog!

(Also, I think that interpreting "the emotional strain caused by the non disclosure is actionable, and so should it be when one hides the fact of them being trans" as "it's OK to kill trans women after fucking them" is probably not that much of a stretch, as you know, that does actually happen quite a lot).

Originally posted at http://auntysarah.dreamwidth.org/214250.html - you can comment here or there.

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From:nixwilliams
Date:5th November, 2009 10:25 am (UTC)
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oh, WHAT THE FUCK is this bullshit? . . . i can't read any more of that. gross.
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 10:41 am (UTC)
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I didn't reach the bottom, but trying is like mining an inexhaustible seam of fail.
From:jennyemily
Date:5th November, 2009 10:27 am (UTC)
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Wow. Where do you find these people? Words fail me. Do we get to claim sexual assualt if we had a sexual relationship with them and they failed to disclose they were bigoted first?
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 10:30 am (UTC)
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Where do you find these people?

They're walking around, everywhere, right now.

And you know what the scariest thing is? These aren't the sort of people with a Daily Mail mentality - if they're on that site, they're gonna be more of a Guardian/Indy mentality. These are the nice ones.

And in answer to your rhetorical question, apparently not, because we're the ones who evoke disgust and loathing in any right minded person, apparently, not them. The world is truly upside-down.
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From:1ngi
Date:5th November, 2009 10:35 am (UTC)
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Blimey - yep, treating an individual like they have a dirty secret is so life affirming I find.

Going back to the original article - I thought this was well put:

"When you say that trans people are obligated either to be celibate or to come out to their sexual partners, you're suggesting that trans people should either disappear on their own or identify themselves so that they can be ignored, all for the benefit of transphobic people who would prefer it if they simply didn't exist.

You're telling transgender people to participate in their own oppression."


Which bit of that did the commenter not get?

They're using the same argument a BNP idiot might use on someone like me - anyone who is a descendant of a black person should declare it incase we gets hurt! It's so obvious that's a racist statement to the extreme. Using that same argument to ask a trans person to disclose - is transphobic. End of.

*hugs*

Edited for spellingez

Edited at 2009-11-05 10:36 (UTC)
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 10:39 am (UTC)
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They're using the same argument a BNP idiot might use on someone like me - anyone who is a descendant of a black person should declare it incase we gets hurt!

Yes.

The thing that boggles my mind about all of this is the way so many of them seem to feel there's some sort of essential difference involved which makes, e.g. a post op trans woman who a man fancies and sleeps with be an enjoyable experience if and only if that man doesn't know she's a trans woman. If he does know, then it turns from being "a good shag" into a deeply traumatic experience which will leave emotional scars for life.

Why?

Edited at 2009-11-05 10:39 (UTC)
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From:biascut
Date:5th November, 2009 11:07 am (UTC)
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Wow. WOW.

People are horrifying.
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 12:21 pm (UTC)
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I'm used to comment threads about teh trans being full of fail, but this one seems to elevate the fail to a new and grotesque artform.
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From:aesmael
Date:5th November, 2009 11:24 am (UTC)
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Deja vu there. Had to check those links were not posted in 2007, because I could have sworn I'd read the exact same comments claiming 'being lied to is worse than the actual transgression' and so on...
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From:meepettemu
Date:5th November, 2009 11:28 am (UTC)
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I am reading. And currently amused be the person shouting educational privilege about the use of the word "flounce". I feel I'm going to be very annoyed shortly..
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From:uisgebeatha
Date:5th November, 2009 11:46 am (UTC)
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Ha, yes, I fell off my seat when I saw that. Hooray for 'your-privilege-is-bigger-than-mine' feminist arguments... ¬_¬
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From:uisgebeatha
Date:5th November, 2009 11:47 am (UTC)
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I was going to write a long and coherent reply, but instead I shall give you this icon and the phrase WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

>.>
From:nixwilliams
Date:5th November, 2009 11:54 am (UTC)
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i think i have fallen in love with your icon. (wtf?!) please to be telling me from whence it came?
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From:lnr
Date:5th November, 2009 12:14 pm (UTC)
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I think it's sad if you have to declare you're not with the feminism movement because of the actions of some within it. Obviously that's your prerogative, especially as you're going to notice this sort of thing much more than I do, I just wish it weren't necessary. Still, I am a feminist and I'm not like that, and condemn those who are. I suspect there are many others replying here who could say something similar. I hope that helps just a little.
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 12:19 pm (UTC)
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I appreciate the sentiment and share it to an extent. It seems, especially when I'm having a bout of SAD-induced cynicism, that this stuff is pervasive though, and I grow weary of feeling that the disclaimer, "but not like THAT" to "I'm a feminist" seems to be always necessary.

*GRUMP*
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From:sparrowpunk
Date:5th November, 2009 12:16 pm (UTC)
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Reading the comments makes me want to proclaim loudly and clearly "I'm not with anybody", but it's pretty hard when I'm under two duvets.

Just... ugh. People make me sad.
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From:whisperkit
Date:5th November, 2009 12:21 pm (UTC)
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Urgh. The comments on that thread are disgusting.
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From:arkady
Date:5th November, 2009 01:24 pm (UTC)
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What stood out for me in that first comment thread you've linked to, is the insistence that a transwoman can only ever be a man pretending to be a woman. I mean, WTF?? The amount of fail in those comments can be pretty much summed up right there - the assumption that men will stop at nothing to have sex with a lesbian, even going so far as painful and invasive surgery to physically become a woman just to have sex with one??

I can smell the transphobia way over here and it sickens me - and I'm not even its target.

People like that are why whilst I probably count as one of those middle-class, educated, white cissexual women you refer to, I refuse to consider myself a feminist whist people like that claim the title yet insist on excluding a group of women on the basis of what external genitalia they happened to be born with.

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From:auntysarah
Date:6th November, 2009 10:46 am (UTC)
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What stood out for me in that first comment thread you've linked to, is the insistence that a transwoman can only ever be a man pretending to be a woman. I mean, WTF??

All hail the mighty Purity of the True Wymyn!
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From:natalie_456
Date:5th November, 2009 01:30 pm (UTC)
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(i'm not going near the link cause I'm already pissed off by Republicans and their tax dollars, but) just, GRR. In an inverted world, does a cis woman have to disclose to the trans person she's about to sleep with "by the way, I've always had a vagina". Does the person who's experimented with their sexuality have to disclose to a partner "by the way, I've slept with someone of a different gender / sex to you".

fail. massive fail. AND TO THINK SO PEOPLE ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT POST-FEMINISM 'oh we've achieved gender equality so its all good now' JUST WTF.
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From:natalie_456
Date:5th November, 2009 01:32 pm (UTC)
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(for the record, by "inverted world" : i mean a hypothetical world where the %s of the world's population for cis & trans people are the other way around, with trans vastly outnumbering cis)
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From:rozk
Date:5th November, 2009 01:40 pm (UTC)
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I've added a few thoughts to this disturbingly Fail-filled thread.
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 01:58 pm (UTC)
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Your response is made of distilled awesome!
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From:hobbitblue
Date:5th November, 2009 02:08 pm (UTC)
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I don't understand what they're fretting about, truly. If you've got to know a person enough to have sex with them, presumably you like them and the body you see and the person you're engaging with. Other than forgetting to point out to the prosepective partner that the genitals don't match with the rest (which I rather presume a person *would not* do), I can't see an issue.
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From:auntysarah
Date:5th November, 2009 02:15 pm (UTC)
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But, but, what about ... you know ... the cooties?

(seriously, you're right, but some people seem to have difficulty advancing past the "icky girls/boys!!!" phase)
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